Talking Shop w/ Matt Giovanisci – A/B Testing, Pricing & CRO

as you grow and scale your business online there's two questions that come up all the time pricing right what price how do I price test and also split testing and these are two of the fastest ways for you to scale your business to that next level and to kind of go through some of these ideas here today with you I have Matt jonishi with me Matt how are you buddy good how are you I'm doing well so Matt text me because we're Amigos in real life as well and um he texts me with some questions about price testing split testing so I hey let's jump on and we decided to record this so we could share it with you so you could start to understand how we two professionals who make millions of dollars online think about these two very key yet advanced concepts therefore Matt I am here to be of service to you and to help you in any way so why don't you give me the breakdown of the questions you've got going and what you're thinking right now so my first question and I this is a question that I constantly run up against is should I even do this because am I yeah I know everyone says it but then you're like you know it's like if you're if you're somebody who's like I just started my blog and I want to AB test headlines you're like all right well probably not that or you know but uh you know the the last three years we've not grown in traffic but we've gotten 4.5 million visitors each year okay um and the so like in that realm I'm like is it worth split testing stuff you know yeah um yeah so and the answer the easy is well the easy answer is because you have statistical significance coming through on a very rapid basis so if I break down 4.5 million visitors per year that's what like 300,000 plus 400,000 per month somewhere in that range which means that that you have so much potential data that you can learn what I think the big question is what's actually worthy of split testing and what is like oh is a green button better or a red button better right and J AB has this one saying that's um test screams not Whispers and that's kind of one of the key ideas now I know that you are mildly anti- popups I remember back in the day you you ran kind of like builtin sections so on melan's blog that at its peak was like 800,000 visits a month is what she was getting um we're down a bit from there but like running AB tests on the popups for the lead magnet was the fastest way for me to dial in what does our audience actually value more um so things I split tested was an a free MP3 versus a free PDF and then so the the actual thing itself and then which the content in them was pretty much the same right so we were just choosing a different media and then from there we were testing is it um you know in our Niche is it healing is it uh manifestation you know all of those kind of outcomes that people want in the spiritual world so there was a a series of layers to what we tested on that and at this point we're not really testing the optin anymore we kind of do more split testing on product level things only yeah um and that's kind of where I'm at which is product level and I think so the big one that and I and I have trouble with split testing and general like what's the best software to use now that you know Google optimize is gone um you know like what's important to test how long do I test it like there's all these things which we can go over individually but yep you asked me the business itself and I will give you that answer I'm not trying to avoid it um so it we're talking about swim University which is my uh pool care um and hot tub care brand um we are we are trying to so the so again we get a lot of visitors uh to the site through our blog we have a pretty large YouTube channel that we get a lot of visitors through as well um back in 2021 if you were to go over to my site money laab I did an experiment based on your ATM strategy where I split tested different offers like you had mentioned in popups I didn't use popups at the time I just used built-in stuff yeah um but I tested you know a free video versus a free checklist versus a free cheat sheet ver you know all around the same thing just different delivery mechanisms y cheat sheet one out like like Landslide which which makes sense in hindsight because you're like okay yeah I I I think you know like a video is free you know you can go on YouTube um a checklist is just a checklist like it's not giving you any information it's just like checks and then a cheat sheet is like oh yeah if you're if you're a gamer which I'm not but it's like oh yeah I want the cheats I want the cheat codes you know it feel you didn't study for the test but yet your teacher in high school gives you the ability to bring it cheat sheet to the test um you're like oh [ __ ] I'm actually gonna pass this test even though I've done zero yeah it makes sense even to somebody like me who doesn't game it's just like oh yeah I want the I want the fat it's it's like if the goal is to get somebody from point A to point B as fast as humanly possible cheat sheet in and of itself as a container as a package like sort of says that right um so that's what we've been doing and we've kind of like we've taken that concept and um sort of pitch it everywhere we p on our YouTube videos we pitch it on our website uh we have done popups you know in the past they work okay uh they definitely get us more than what we got I just I'm just switching I constantly switch um technology platforms and so like we're just in between platforms right now so um but yeah they'll probably come back uh so the other day I was talking to Steph my wife now uh Congratulations by the way y who's uh who works you know with me at some University so we were saying like Okay we have this product we have this uh pool course right and uh it's you know we were charging back back in 2021 when we did this experiment um I had raised the price from $49 to $97 and then created an Otto based on your recommendation um that o was for 24 hours deadline funnel 50% off right after the subscribe for the cheat sheet um and then you know that was it and that did well for two three years okay right um but we had nothing else to sell them like nothing so it was like that was our money we were making that was it um I was never able to run Facebook ads because we never I could never get it below $49 you know cost per acquisition right y um and because I never had the upsell so we were like okay maybe we need to uh start selling physical products so we started selling chemicals that did not work either then we were like because it's like it's not that much of an upsell and it's not it it wasn't a complete solution for people like it was just a chemical that solves one little tiny problem which would have been a better lead magnet to a to a bigger course right which is it really should have been flipped the other way but it's a physical product so there's a lot more cost associated with it Etc um more than a digital product so then we so then I had the hairbrain idea to be like oh let's take our book we we we the course comes with a digital PDF of our pool care handbook and it comes with a video course so we were like let's turn it into an actual book a physical book and sell that y we did that in I want to say we that came out in maybe June and our sales our core sales tanked because the Assumption I had made after the summer was like we cannibalized our core sales because we were offering essentially like a physical book that was $49 that we were making maybe $21 after it was printed and after it was shipped which is not bad by the way like retail for a book like or Mar or like profit on a book $21 after shipping pretty good for for you know for us self-published the whole the whole nine but $21 is not as good as $97 for a full course which is again is 100 like almost 95% margin if you remove the stripe fees or whatever or at an OT that would have been about 454 even yeah even an Oto at 47 at the time um still more than you know so yep so what happened was I was like all right let me um let me take the book out of this equation right and let me I I bought your autoresponder template okay and I was like I'm just gonna put this in place build a 7day yeah I'm gonna build a 7day um I'm G to remove the Otto because that we were getting comments from people like oh I signed up for this cheat sheet and they're just trying to sell yeah yeah yeah and comments on the Facebook ad you're talking about right oh God that was that was worse no I'm talking about YouTube videos yep yep gotcha but yeah Facebook was even worse um so then we were like I'm like okay think the more ethical thing ethical uh thing to do would be let me immediately give them access to the thing that I that they requested right okay and then I will sell them via email and and if I do it that way through a 7day I will not give them a huge discount instead I will offer them the course plus the physical book as a bundle so they will never be able to get the physical book unless they buy through this one channel yep I sent so I I put that all together you know followed your template obviously changing it like you know for my words and whatever and and and shortening things and whatever um I ended up throwing 15,000 people through this okay I'm gonna say dozens of sales maybe five sales yep yep so and and I love this so for everybody who's watching thank you for sticking with it because what we're doing is we're taking all of the parts of his machinery and we're laying all these parts on the table right it's important sometimes to assess like what are you doing what have you done in the past what are you currently doing and it's this reorganization of things and reordering of things and when you break so the thing about an Otto that makes an Otto so special is 100% of leads sees it right when you get to your pitch showing up in email two three before you're literally committing to 30% or less of people because like your open rates are probably somewhere in the 20 to 30% range um not to mention if it's the real pitch is happening on email 5 you're gonna have like maybe a half percent quarter per unsubscribe rate as well so what happens is by the time you get down to the number of people who open email five who haven't unsubscribed and then how many what percentage of them click it's like 1% so you're getting like 1% of 30% of people to actually see the sales message and that simple math right there in the number of eyeballs getting on the message is exactly why it kills and that autoresponder series is designed to actually work in tandem with the Otto and generally I try to sell it as a bundle um with all of my templates because we need to just make more offers in in more like make offers before we give value because there are some people who just have a Green Spa right now or a green pool and they they literally have an acute problem and they're ready to throw money at the problem today so we make it available for those people but then also for the people who need the emotional the trust building and all of the logic and all of these other things that you're going to offer through the emails then we kind of attempt to close those people and it's like when they work together you can start to look at your return on ads spend through a 7-Day attribution window right so so you're not just getting that one time one day one hour attrib window you actually look through it through a 7day attribution window um real quick one question I have is like on on the chemicals that you sell you I know you have cost of good sold built into that when you make a chemical sale with whatever your current offer is like what is the rough profit on that they're like five bucks 10 bucks yeah is like it's it's tiny it's not I honestly don't even want to talk about it fair enough because y because we're not like we're not planning on expanding the line we it solves a very specific problem that actually we we'd much rather dial in our digital stuff because that ultimately is what gives us the cash flow in order to do physical so because we are not taking um Equity we're not taking we're not giving away Equity we're not taking Investments we're not you know putting taking loans out for you know so it's like so we have this we have this course we now have this book that can be shipped internationally you know it's slower but we were like so the other so and I also want to point out too in those numbers that I gave with the S day it's October yes it's not po season here in North America yeah sure so so my my assumption there was well if you're signing up for getting a pull cheat sheet now it means your pool's probably open you know what I mean so it's less it's less people that are that are sub subscribing but those people have open pools because we do have we do live in you know Australia is having their season right now and and obviously like in Florida and where you are and Southern California and Texas like they all have year Sun Belt yep the whole Sun Belt so I just want to make that context a little clearer yes I I gave you the number of people that got through it I didn't give you the I didn't give you the number of people who opened that those emails which would have been right you're right uh 75% less so that so that five to you know that conversion rate number changes 100% just the number of eyeballs so then the chemicals like it correct me if I'm wrong but like get them on auto purchase chemicals every month it's a subscription thing you're making a few bucks per person per month and it's kind of like an automated side of the business that's the ultimate backend that just has a little bit of cash flow but it's not like the focus we're not even doing no we're not even doing that because it's not even something that requires consistent purchasing got it on the pool side so we do have another thing on in the works that I don't want to mention but essentially it's a tool we're we're building a digital tool okay that will that could be subscription cool we just haven't we Haven we haven't landed on it yet we're still working on this is one of the smartest things to do is always be thinking about what's the next thing we're going to sell our audience so right here behind me um since I'm I'm literally building out this set right now um this one of melan's art pieces right there that we're now selling on Etsy right and so we've been selling audio meditations we've been selling all these different things it's like well you know we know our people are buying other things what kinds of other things are they buying they're buying mugs they're buying you know this is the concept of merchandising and Melanie does graphic arts and she loves that so it's like perpetually thinking of new things to sell your people is one of those ways that you kind of like reconfigure all of your numbers from the testing phase and the testing process yeah so so yeah go ahe go ahead do you have a specific question or do you you you want kind of some like because I see kind of a way to start to stack things um I do have I do have a specific question um so what we've decided or at least what I've decided is I have I've kind of splintered out all of these products that essentially do the same thing right the book does the same thing as the course does the same thing as our chemicals right does the does the same thing maybe as our tool um and so what I would like to do is concentrate all of those into one product offering and just nail that because I do not I do not think we ever truly nailed that so instead of trying to think of more and more and more and more products to sell I'd rather go how do we sell this one product effectively going into cro AB testing y copywriting product development and Improvement so what what I decided was like okay let me put the OT back right let me put it back let me remove the 7-Day for now okay and let me figure out the I I wanted to figure out what is the price threshold that a pool owner is willing to pay for a course to teach them everything there is to know about their pool the be all end all yep be so I want to know what's the highest maximum price that I can charge that people are like I'm good with this right so I do have to AB test that and one of the things that I don't like doing I don't like the idea of AB testing but I feel like it has to be done in order to just figure that out and then once it's figured out then I can rebuild the course and redesign it so that it matches to me or I shouldn't say matches exceeds that value yep so my first test which I set up yesterday um and I can tell you the tools that I'm using too uh was to basically create an Otto with the same deadline funnel meaning time frame the same discount percentage off but different base prices so did you do 197 and 97 197 and 149 and 149 and you already have data at 97 so that correct I already have data at 97 yep yep so we did ra raise the price of the course we added some new stuff to the course and the course again organically just sold that way like people were just buying it off the shelf you know kind of without you know with a decent you know sales page but I was like okay not you know and again we're talking offseason so my numbers are not like it's hard for me to compare them but I was like okay maybe 149 people are like they can they can handle that or at least it's valuable to them at 149 yeah is it valuable at 200 is it Val Val at 249 is it valuable at 3.99 I don't know what that upper limit is but once I my my thought was let me figure that out first and then and then it makes more sense for me to cram as much value into that to like exceed now I know what I have to exceed so a couple of things here man because like let's just say and I want to talk about your metric for actually tracking this because you got to be really meticulous about like what metric you're using to compare everything to but like let's say that like the 190 is winning and I would probably use earnings per lead because everyone who sees that they're seeing it after they opt in for the cheat sheet correct yes so so a lead and it's the exact same sales Page by the way so the only difference just the price test the only difference is is when you click the button the in the shopping cart the price will be not even that much different because we're talking about 50% off you know uh 149 which I think is like 78 bucks and like7 like 97 bucks yep yeah so if you find that your earnings per lead right is actually the highest at the 197 price point and your refund rate has not changed technically speaking I don't think you need to go in and do anything to that offer like that is what the market values that product at and if the if you see a spike in your refund rate and your refund rate goes from 2% to 12% that would obiously be an alarm Bell like okay right like the sales materials great like I got them in the door but then obviously something broke down in delivery they didn't feel like the value was there therefore XYZ but where my brain goes to is while you're doing this and we did this with melanies stuff years ago on Sever and we still do it with a lot of our different products um we tested one product 27 47 and 97 right and and we're not necessarily looking for the highest profit margin number we know which one that will be because it's your profit margin also multiplied by your conversion rates so you're monitoring the conversion rates just to know which one's convert better but you have to calculate it down to the actual return that you're receiving because that's what controls how much you can spend to buy another customer and when you're in a situation that you don't have several products to sell them on the back end you need to be making sure that you're getting like a two to one return on ad spend at minimum because you have to bake your profit into this first cake and you know that but I'm mentioning it because there's people listening who might have several products like uh an audio hypnotist who creates uh hypnosis MP3s like they can keep creating new mp3s and new hypnosis sessions for people for months and years to come so they can break even on the front end they can break even on this first transaction yeah and then they know at some point they'll sell something else for them down the line yes so based on the business model but what I would like to see happen and what shopping cart are you actually managing the transactions through okay so you're on Shopify so plugins Galore but I think the best setup is to do Otto 50% off deadline funnel which use a follow-up sequence to remind them that by the way your deadline is coming up is it a 48 hour deadline a 24 hour so they should be getting at least one more email to reintroduce them back right to make sure that that you're get taking that multiple chances but like do you have the book as a bump offer for a checkbox where they can just check the box be like hey add the book on so you can have easy access to all this information as well no and there's a technical reason there's a technical reason why we can't do that well there's a technical reason why you can't do that with the platform you're on today but you could set this all up on another platform and get it running because what this does is this is how you add more Revenue per customer right this is how you increase your average order value which will do one of two things number one it'll allow you to spend more money on your ads effectively number two it'll make you more profit right and if you find on this front end thing at whatever your highest converting whatever your highest earnings per lead number is let's say it's a 149 number you're like damn like it's working it's converting really well but I'm only making you know I'm not necessarily making enough compared to my ad spend start to tack on more products from there yeah and that's where you can you could do the bump of the book and then you could do a one-click upsell of by the way do you want all the chemicals here's a kit of chemicals yeah and so you get them to where the one transaction that they're saying yes to is not just that $78 like they actually could spend $178 or $278 on that one transaction which I'm stretching it for where you're at right now because I know you don't like that's not the the costs associated but like your chemicals are fulfilled through a third party 3pl type thing that's like that's it's all automated right or is that a total yeah it's all automated but it there's a there's a there's an issue with umin as easy as the gurus make it sound yeah so we ran into an issue where uh I have to pay state taxes in every [ __ ] State because I'm not you deliver to I'm not selling in Amazon and Amazon's the marketplace so I am the marketplace so if we reach a certain threshold of sales within certain States right we have to start paying the sales tax in those States and getting a sales tax license in those States right right which becomes a job an actual physical human being job that I'm like well maybe that's not something that we want to get into for low margin products absolutely low margin products right so right but so then FBA is possibly like if you want to play that game then you just run an FBA and you follow up with emails with a you can't do affiliate links and emails um but reviews and right what we've decided is like not not that we're gonna like we're still going to mess with physical products but we're we're all we're trying to do is focus on like maximizing profitability on the things that we can control like we can control digital products I can make them better I can deliver them faster I can you know change the price I can design them better I can I can make the customer experience better I the whole way through physical product becomes much difficult I'm not sending these products out by mail by hand so I'm I'm losing that um I'm not formulating the chemicals myself so like I I can't prove them better you know without a ton of rization yeah totally and the margins are so slim that that it doesn't I mean that's that is not necessarily um a good direction to go into for the types of businesses we run like high leverage especially shipping if it was if I was running a retail store locally like totally obviously like you'd have to do it that way but and it makes sense but those you know the chemicals are not the money maker they're the help they're like the you know for for us it's like hey we we're GNA help you with your pool yeah and then we're also gonna sell you these chemicals which we don't really make that much on but like it's also going to help you like it's almost like a charity case in a weird way um unless I start unless I invent my own chemicals and I'm like no one else sells this like this is our special formula which is not that that would require me to get into an entirely different uh area of expertise right yeah I mean I'm sure there's a whole world of like Drop Shipping where you could create like your own vacuums I'm sure you've looked into this but I mean like there is a way to build out a whole line of physical products but totally it's important to ask you know is the juice worth the squeeze and it might just be worth yeah it might be worth just you know obviously we have Amazon Affiliates which is fine but we can't do it through email but we have there's ways around that you know where you could you know send an email to a blog post that has them built baked in you know right um or you could you know we could do affiliate deals with with private companies that are making products that we really love and have you know and have private deals with them where the affiliate rate is 10% or more so you know and it's like and we've done that before have made really good money because we have the audience to do that um but but I'm even thinking so you know like let's say the so basically the the the the question was like is that a good price test because yes okay 100% that's exactly what I would be doing but here's I want to point this out too because we came to same conclusion maybe your audience might not come to the same conclusion we were like in my head I immediately went well let's test 50% off and 75% off and see which one does better and I'm like you know which one's gonna do better y 75% will do better than 50% but here's here's the actual question of how you want to test this is you got to figure out what your actual retail number is so can you get to $97 average order value on this thing with a 75% discount versus a 50% discount and that's a separate test and you would have to test them separately so right keeping that percentage discount the same is that's your constant right and one barable which is the base price exactly exactly so then you're going to measure what is my conversion right at 49.97 19749 and then what's my earnings per lead at each one of those numbers right and you need to have I would think you need to have at least 300 customers to have statistical significance that I would really trust now on some things I'm willing 300 people to pull the trigger on the on one of those two otos I mean yeah because if you if you have 300 people go what kind of conversion rates are we looking at like 6% 5% give or take lower lower 2% yeah right three 1% so 300 people see it you're making three sales right and for three sales that that's not enough people people to see it no no I think I literally think you need at least a hundred sales at each price point to truly know if that's gonna work now that's scientific that's statist that's true I was gonna say because we're in pool we're in off season like that's not gonna happen until next year yeah totally totally all winter to get that data 100% agree with that and that that's where you need and it may be statisically insignificant so we're like but if it's statistically insignificant that means you're making the same amount either way and you're kind of netet net out the only thing that changes is the number of customers who come into your ecosystem and some businesses will want to error on the side of higher customer generation numbers right the actual number of transactions going up because they have a very high lifetime value per customer the hypnotist is the example of that right like all I want on the front end is a customer generation system to start SP out customers because I know my lifetime value for every customer is going to be very high because I'm making a new hypnosis session once a month every month for the next five years that's you know 60 different sessions I'm going to be offering over the next five years you're not in that bucket so like you really yeah you only need to care about the actual return or the actual amount of of income made um yeah the the data set is that that's required to get true statistical significance on this is actually quite large man and this is where a I'm glad you're growing your list because running a Big Spring sale uh open up your pool sale for everyone who did or didn't buy this is where that's where you are able to actually earn your kind of like Revenue back for all those people who didn't buy that first time is by running quarterly semiannual B anually Sales yep now you say that and I and I I'm hearing my the voice of like the general audience going like then what the hell is like if there is no point to AB testing because if I need that much data then I will never it'll take me a year or two years to get that many customers especially if we're talking about high-end products that I'll never know and then as soon as I do know it may be insignificant and was like wow I just I didn't waste that time but it was like I really wish I didn't do that like I wish I wish I just would have picked one and went with it so like yeah but what pi the one that has the shittiest earnings for lead money on the table and this is why you have to do it right this is why it's like hindsight gives us the blessing of being able to be like ah well that did or didn't work right that confir oh I knew that all along well yeah but you didn't actually know you thought that and like sometimes our speculations are correct but other times our speculations are not correct um so so have you ever done and I know we talked about this have you done a direct mail piece have you rented a list from like next Mark no we're so I am trying to stay I'm trying to Okay the reason I haven't done this is because I don't I still don't believe that I have a truly bulletproof offer right I have not landed on that yet so I don't feel comfortable you know spending money even on Facebook or Google to promote something when I don't even know if it works I I don't have the conversion rate numbers so like and I've never had them you know at at one point I will say with my OT strategy back in like 2021 which we ran for like two years my conversion rate was 3% easily that was only through organic as soon as I tried to throw that through Facebook 0.2% like it just because and and it's very clear why because if if it's organic you're I'm pre-building trust right you've read an article you've watched a video you're like this guy actively they're literally actively looking for you you're not interrupting them where they're trying to look at whatever people look at on social media right you're not interrupting they're they're they're seeking out an authoritative figure to help them solve a problem and when you rank they think Google's like oh well Google says this guy's The Authority trust faster cross they're getting a trust yeah or YouTube is serving me this it's it must be good or I Google or I went on YouTube or Google and yeah typed it in and there they were yep um versus you're right the the interruption of a Facebook ad um and even like Google The Google ads converted the same so to be clear like I ran Google ads as well they converted also 3% okay but Facebook did not and I went okay I probably have to provide more value on the face Facebook literally in the ad itself I would have to create a video that was basically like our you one of our best performing YouTube videos just like run that correct run them to the you know so that way at least if they watch the whole thing they're like this was great and you button yeah you target people who who watch 25% or 50% of the video yeah that that would have probably worked better than had I you know the what I did but way I still think 3% sucks it's like all right 3% 3% is great man you you can build big businesses off 3% and I I understand that you're like this should be able to get better and better and better but um just we've got some up to 10% Like that's about as that's about the max 10 11 12% for short periods of time we we've had some offers get to that high but it's worth noting that I've I've probably tested you know 200 250 offers so I we do a lot of things because we create everything digitally we literally just recorded a new um session that'll be a product this morning before our call here today right so that's that's ultimately why I want to stay in digital because that is I am so fast at that that I can improve anything like what else can you create for them that's my question is what other digital products can you create for these for your folks to where and and not just like okay here's the pool product and then here's the hot tub product and being more specific to hot tub people will increase the conversion rates being more specific to pool people will increase conversion rates even though it's the same thing but all we're all we're doing is selling that first level of here's how to do the thing level of it um you gotta get the bump built in dog like like it's just work yeah just some percentage of people eight to 15% of people are gonna be like yeah I want the book put that on my bookshelf of course I want that I'll pay $29 more for that or whatever and or yeah you're right so here's here's where it gets a little bit in the weeds so we were like all right it it felt good to do a price test because we were like let's find out what people are willing to pay for a pool course like a total package like you learn everything right y um and then we're like okay we can move that offer around we can go all right we now know that the people are willing to pay physically now not the discount but like the actual money out of pocket maybe it is 149 maybe it's 197 I don't know or maybe it's freaking 400 I have no idea what what it what the where the level is you had mentioned earlier see in my head I went all I care about is total revenue at the end of this test and you're like nah it's Revenue per subscriber which I'm like okay that I need to like write down check mark because I'm like that I wouldn't have thought that and right and what's the dam to Apples right well it gives you an apples it gives you an Apples to Apples because uh depending on how you're running your split test some variations are going to get different amounts of of visitors to it right and and seasonality because so so one way to run this split test is in October and November I'm going to do this price in December and January I'm going to do that price and I I'll make sure that each one sees 500 500 people see each offer but you're getting a different person in December than you are in October so that that changes things to where you don't actually know um and then the other side of it is if you just run an in the moment split test like just an actual true AB test where it rotates a lot of times those systems will actually throw more traffic towards one of your variations it's rare that they actually spit split traffic 50-50 which is freaking annoying as hell but it we see it all the time in there's becomes a statistical variation in the number of people who actually see the test so breaking it down to a number that you can look at on everything so from an Affiliates perspective we look at earnings per click right so I sent a thousand clicks to your offer what did I earn cool that's how much I earned but like what was my earnings per click and that way I can compare vendor a versus vendor B versus vendor C and maybe less people click on vendor C but I made a lot more earnings per click on vendor C then that means I I can now debug and and say that um my email didn't grab them the hook didn't grab them but I know for a fact I make more per click on vendor and that works because it works when you split tested between vendors because you ultimately don't have control over the sales page right right so it's like all right yeah because it's like oh I you know it's it's that's another that's another issue there but so I I um so the thought process was once I figure out the price then I can start moving it so like for example we had an idea where we were like what if we just took a chunk off of the product and we and we solved one very specific problem instead of the entire problem which is pool care and we solved one specific problem let's call it you know cloudy water for example and we were like all right we're gonna create a cloudy water Workshop um and it's you know it's that is the Oto and it's maybe 29 or 49 and it's and it's only available now or like we discount It Whatever whatever the whatever like scarcity urgency you know levers we can pull there because that's an entirely separate AB test I think right um and then the the one click upsell can be the bigger course maybe it's 200 and it comes with a book but you know all those other things or set you know you put back back in the 7-Day sequence and then that's the the pitch of the the bigger product uh and so like yes you're making money off of the initial you know you're making money more you're getting more customers to see your offer right your second offer Which is higher and so then you can go well which is what your whole ATM strategy is is like right it's like well the money I made on the on the initial purchase is what I spend to get into Facebook right that's your profits are all in the back end funding because I know 30% or 25% or whatever of those customers or even leads that go through that 7-Day sequence will buy the $200 thing right and so that's my real profit that's like what I get to keep that's my real revenue and the rest of it just goes into to paying for ads so I was like we could do that but I I kind of feel like we should figure out what the big product price is first but I'm think might now I'm I thinking like well I'm offering it at 50% off so like I'm really not finding that out right well I mean you are you're just you earn whatever the number is Post discount right right so a $97 product that's discounted by 50% is actually a $47 product right so so you can still know you just got to make sure you're mentally linking it to the price that people actually pay right because there's a threshold of where they'll pay now here's one thing we did before this that that'll just kind of mess with your head um we took our bestselling one of our bestselling things that was like $249 and we dropped it down to $47 and we would run these sales where we just ran them at $47 and we just ran ads all of our unsubscribes all of our retargeting and we sent it to the warm traffic and it crushed it so as we're approaching Black Friday but isn't that obvious because they already knew it was worth this much I mean we've tried it on other products and it flopped right it only worked on a couple of products it's not something that works absolutely every single time um yeah so it's it's one of the most interesting Parts about AB split testing and actually getting into the data is how different the outcomes can be from what seem like relatively small changes to the game um it doesn't always happen that way but sometimes you can see such an increase in volume in sales that the the sheer increase in conversion rate on the sales page because of the price discount changes all the metrics and you can earn more profit long term sometimes from a lower price point than you can from a higher price point that's the point right is mentally you're thinking well if I charge more more more more more for this thing is that how I earn more and the ultimate answer lies in the data which is why it's smart that you're doing testing and this is why when your ego Mind Is Telling You like ah this is dumb I shouldn't even be doing testing it's like well you actually don't you have no you don't know what the best number is but it's worth acknowledging if you build something you put a price tag that you think fits on it it works for you enough people buy it that you guys are making enough money to pay for your lifestyle and you guys are happy and just life is good yeah like do you really need to split test it in that moment um the reason why most people get really really into split testing is is because they're chasing ever increasing cost per customer acquisition from Facebook ads and YouTube ads and Google ads well we want to do that like that's the thing is like we're we are we've been an organic company this you know not like so organic yeah my organic chemicals my organic [ __ ] chlorine bromine we just yeah all of our traffic has come from just like us putting out free content on YouTube and and and our our website depend on the algorithms is another way of saying that you don't have the freedom to scale or defend against Google doing something stupid let's just be real in the last couple of months Google's getting Dumber uh in how they're trying to deal with the onslaught of AI based content yeah so we're so in my head I'm like look I'm I'm spending a lot of time learning you know I spend a lot of time learning Facebook ads I think I know what I'm doing as far as running them uh whether they work or not is a is a separate issue but I'm like I what I don't have is the ability to run an ad and confidently know that I'm going to make money off of this person even if I don't break even or I lose money on their initial uh acquisition um because I do not have a good model in place like an actual like um my business model is fine for our lifestyle right and fine for organic but it doesn't but I would love to scale it without scaling uh a a personnel and I think that there's the way to do it would be like one let's figure out the threshold of our product let's let's figure out product pricing because we're probably under selling we're probably underpriced because you had mentioned earlier about return rate we're not even close to like 0.1% like we're not even close so like we get maybe like if we if we sell maybe I don't know I will say like 250 courses we might get one return maybe okay it's not it's nothing so I'm like we yeah we haven't even like tested that level of you know um but ultim sales copy on your OTL the same one that's always been is that you the the one that you came up with oh the OT sales copy yeah the same one got it so it's it's based off of saving money like save hundreds on chemicals and spend less time cleaning or something like that so that's the that's the big hook the big headline um yeah I think that could be tested well that's what I'm that's where I'm getting at is like I think it's time to consider hiring some sort of like a copywriter some sort of a gun to to beat your control and to see if you can improve that because just fiddling with the bits and you know getting all of the right pieces and the right places on the sales letter can have a drastic improvement Milli I can write really good copy for her brand but we got this lady that we use and it costs somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000 bucks for a sales letter from her to get a full sales letter and they don't always work drastically better but sometimes she puts out things that work so freaking well that we can run ads to them for I mean years and years and years on end and the ROI on those kinds of things goes up drastically so to me you're probably going to get like yes you got to figure out what the exact price point is but if you want to just go with a higher price point all you need to do is justify that price point more in the sales copy here's why it's worth 197 because the average pool guy cost $463 per year you're saving that but you're not even G you know so over the course of five years you're going to end up saving $ 6,247 and you know is it worth $197 today to save $6,279 addition to Google and Facebook no well yes the answer is yes I have they have all tanked horribly were they was it great creative was it one of your videos because you make crazy weird goofy [ __ ] dude like I've seen your rap videos anybody watching hasn't seen Matt gan's rap videos it's under his name uh he has a rap album on on YouTube that's actually surprisingly not terrible I hope that's something resembling a compliment I was I was impressed but but um are you familiar with the do Squatch yeah brand okay yeah I'm I'm assuming you saw the early um Dollar Shave Club video ads right there's that that like overthe toop there's movement there's stuff you're throwing [ __ ] into a pool you're you're just you're making this visual video experience that people even who don't have a pool are going to watch because it's just like it's this and that and then the laptop he throws a laptop in the pool and d d and you're like it's just like it just becomes this experience that people enjoy watching I see that like playing your strengths and also knowing you know you're in your your little Brew cabin thing that you're in the videos you created for that um the level of like they they crushed it right like the level of like artistic prowess that you deliver inside of a video is noteworthy and I think there's a way in that that you could play with it and that when you find that fun I think there's a big opportunity but then again I would just be I would just be in production I would try to produce three to four ads that would be ready for opening season in Spring yeah and and and that's a that's what we want to do and that's what you know like I you know yeah I could go buy a bunch of fake money and just start dumping buckets of it into a pool and that would probably get that would stop somebody from scrolling like what the [ __ ] is this person can can I can I get you one idea a little bit better than that sure go ahead get real money like they won't let you take out more than five grand from your bank at a time but just every once like once every couple of weeks go get out like three four five grand in 50s and 20s and stuff and then by the time Springtime hits you'll have like 15 20 grand later around it's linen why would I do why would I do that like what's the it's all video because it's real like it would look it would be real like it's it's just that authenticity you could do it your way I just think it' be funny I hear what you're say I mean look I I love the authenticity of it and it's like wow that guy really did that like that's insane you know I get that I get that it's a pattern interrupt right it's called a hook and that's what you have to like you have like people are they're zombies on Facebook ads right they're just they're just numbing themselves like dopamine dopamine dopamine dopamine and like YouTube's the same way man which is kind of get disheartened on continuing to make YouTube channels sometimes because I know there's like a huge s segment of my audience who do they don't actually build anything they just watch videos they're getting this weird dopamine entertainment from watching creators talk about how to create and you actually have to like shake them and like wake them up you have to get them out of their trance through some pattern interrupt that's so big that they're gonna be like whoa um but well yeah I I I agree let me let me ask this question um what would you do if you were me and you have you have a um you have a product that's good uh a course that's good that we make good margins on great margins ridiculously good margins um and you have and and we have a physical book that we make decent margins on but you know takes forever to ship to the customer because that's print done demand it takes SE like almost 10 days for it to arrive to a customer okay uh and those are the only two things you have yep all right you have a cheat sheet that that and and it comes with there's a there's a delight in that cheat sheet where you get the cheat sheet but you also get like 10 other things you can download that help your pools too um so we kind of overd deliver on the lead magnet without telling you um lead magnet converts organically at 4 and a half% you know just from people visiting our website people visiting YouTube as well um I can get that I can do pretty decently on Facebook getting leads like that's not a that's not an issue for me yep um so so like adwise and and traffic-wise is not traffic has never been my issue I know how to get traffic whether it's paid or not my issue is um profit not even re but profit right so real quick what are the other things you're bundling with the cheat sheet on the unannounced bonuses because CU like like when you're like oh my conversion rates are great on this thing and I give them this other stuff I'm like dude sell the other stuff oh I don't I mean I only I just I just did that so yeah they there there's like a um a cloudy pool guide there's a algae guide there's a uh like a data sheet where people can fill out their pool profile so they have it you know um we have uh there's a bunch of other like there's checklist in there closing checklist opening checklists um so it's like a bunch of things they you know um yeah and I yeah and I've also uh I don't know if this matters but I print it out like I have physical copies of the cheat sheets that are like in matte finish that I can show on video without glare so like I can physically show people in in an ad or whatever that I have like you can download this and print this and and we have print friendly versions of of all the cheat sheets as well so that you know if it's because it's a very full color High color so we're like we we created so a can you sell them that can we sell them what the physical thing the actual printed version of it okay so so this is this is where my brain is going to go is like what are the things you're delivering that people are saying yes to already and then what are the what are the little other things that you could start to announce and sell so you mentioned earlier the cloudy water solution it sounds like you're incorporating a free version of that in with a cheat sheet but you don't announce it so you know they're not opting in for that for the cheat sheet so then my question is would they buy that can you is there a bundle of get this this and this as the three little kits it's $7 and then would people be willing to buy that if so can you sell that with the whole course upsell how does that do against going as an OT directly to the course okay so I want to like also zoom out a little bit so there's this initial Otto transaction okay this initial one-time offer transaction that happens it's a totally separate thing to the Perpetual series of offers that you're going to continue to make to them via email because most people are going to say no to the Otto right like forever that's that's never going to change you're never gonna get to a point where 51% of people say yes to your OT it just won't happen therefore you need to make sure that your follow-up sequence and your email is always promoting that and all of the other things that they're selling so for example selling the digital course as an Otto right now seems like the best idea the best thing you've got going I would link the bump offer for the book after that anybody who did not buy that course I would then try to sell them the book in a future email probably in a series of future emails okay and what I'm doing is I'm just going down line like would they say yes to the everything package if no what's the next best thing I could sell them and I think you could do a video for that right yeah exactly downselling but not in not in that exact transaction because I wouldn't I I don't want my people to feel like Jesus I just tried to say yes to Something Free like come on we take like one shot we take one crack at making that first sale and then we get them into some value and and some other things totally so then whether they said yes or no to that selling finding a way to sell the chemicals like whether they're your chemicals whether it's an affiliate product chemical whether it's something else down there that that is so I want that follow-up sequence to perpetually go down the list of do they buy this yes or no if no if yes sell them the next logical thing so if yes they bought the big course then I would skip the book right I would use tagging for this if they said no to the Otto after the deadline funnels done and you do an actual pitch on the deadline funnels maybe that's when you drip out the cloudy pool report the other free report things in a couple of free emails and then you go for the book sale after that so they're starting to see the book sale around email four or five and then when you get through that you're then selling the chemicals at the end because when you get down to the chemicals like I don't I just can you make a dollar off of these people like at some point in your right so at some point we're down to that level where we're trying to build this out to where you're making some sort of a sale yeah at some point let me um let me um ask so so the the Otto we're selling our Flagship yep in the oot be all end all like like the the one thing yep do you do you think that that is a good idea or is that a bad idea you know the answer to this my friend it's a bad idea you have to test oh sure sorry I apologize right that's the whole point um because here's here's what my question is I think I think this is the right way for you because you kind of have one home run product you kind of have one thing that you're doing now I would I would recommend thinking about what's the $29 a month um membership program where they can send you pictures they can ask you questions they can text you it's not actually you it's somebody that you Outsource it to so because then if you sell somebody on that and they're paying you1 199.95 a month and they get like here's what to do this month based on their like Zone their USD hard zone you figure it out like you might actually see a lifetime value of that person if they stick on for five years their lifetime value becomes like $800 $900,000 right and so I'm actively thinking of ways for you to increase your lifetime value per customer while you're working on selling more of your Flagship thing and adding on recurring revenue is one of the fastest ways but is that easy is that something you want to do the other thing I would try to figure out like so one of the ways I look at it is like what's the like one thing that your audience would need to do to feel empowered to feel like I can manage all of my chemicals myself right because I've had a hot tub before um it was in my Airbnb so I just I just I didn't want to I don't want to touch it no so I hired professionals but even before we opened that thing up as an Airbnb when I was I still didn't I didn't feel comfortable with the chemicals like literally I had some fear around measuring it so is there some sort of a free plus shipping offer or a super low ticket offer where I get some tester strips and a video that just helps me understand how to monitor my levels and you're probably like well that video is free on YouTube and that those tester strips are available at Leslie's Pool Supply and it's like well yeah but that's the truth about everything people in the make money online space who sell $2,000 products that have the same exact information that you and and I've been sharing 100% for free for years right so it's like some people will pay for that so it's is there a free plus shipping offer that you could put out there that gets me away to watch one of your videos and then I dip the thing in the thing and I look and I see the color and I know what I need to do with a cheat sheet that tells me what to do with all these colorations because once I have that basic understanding I'm like I have I go from being like this is intimidating I'm probably going to goof it up I I really don't understand this world at all two and then I shift like oh I now get it you know what let me grab the full course let me get some chemicals let me and you're my trusted adviser because you got me to take that one step that no one else has helped me take before and everybody every business has this one step so in in my wife's business it's like put on the audio and press play and have an experience of feeling like spiritual energy is flowing through your body right like like for the miles Beckler brand often it's getting someone to actually publish their first several YouTube videos or getting someone to actually publish their first WordPress but like like I when I get someone to shift out of being a pure consumer a pure entrepreneur who thinks like oh it' be cool someday if to then actually shift and get on the path and even if they publish one or two blog posts and they're terrible and they were written with AI they made a that's a that's a Monumental shift so I'm looking for these kind of like zero to one moments in your audience as well and test strips because to me they don't even even a two right test strips should be able to fit in an envelope that's something that you should be able to mail out wrong trust me I went through this yeah and that nuts I have this is why this is why like the physical Product Industry especially for pools has been like just kind of tough it's it's they're old school so like I I literally came up new packaging foil insert like er you know like not ergonomic but like uh like you know so that they don't get wet there they're like we can't do it no one will do it no one will do it in America you have to go overseas to do it I'm like oh well that sucks because all the test trip companies are here in America so um but there are some I can get uh it's just not it's never going to look the way I want it to look and it's never gonna I know you and Brands and prettiness look how pretty [ __ ] set is dude like look at that yeah I've been in your house how much of an interior design specialist design home gangster you are yeah so I'm just like so anyway yeah that has been we're that is still in the works that's like part of that tool that I mentioned uh earlier is like yeah we we W to we want to offer a physical like a small physical product you get in the mail literally the lightest envelope a handful of test strips maybe or more and like honestly it would be it would be a dream of mine for people to never pay for test strips ever again I don't know how to do that but it would be great because I'm like the the biggest problem that people have is they don't test their water and then they don't they add the wrong chemicals or whatever the case is so yes that is absolutely like so so in so you say that and I'm like immediately I'm like yeah I can make that happen to in in two hours right right I can make that product I could design that sales page I can put it up as an Otto and test it against you know my uh my course that's Otto right now right but here's where I get like really tripped up with AB testing which is like I want to test all this [ __ ] right [ __ ] today like you know what I mean and so yeah I go well what is the order of operations so that I don't waste my time when I should be testing something that would definitely be better I and I have this test running now and I show I basically have one day worth of data which is zero I go okay but now I have this new idea refresh refresh refresh yeah it's all day I'm just like what did did I get a sale um you know so Steph's like stop looking at it and saying it out loud in the room pick at it yeah it's like you know I check my stats every single day we get more traffic you know it's like no it needs time but yeah like I want to test that now but I can't test that for you know three to six months well so but yes you can you would test it in a different position so I would go through all your non- buyers everybody who's never bought from you in the past boom that's who I would test it for right and I would email it out my first test would just be a freaking email right straight to email I can't do that right now you can't email your list right now I can't I can I can't email them to buy something for their pool because most people don't have pool open so you know like I do have those segmented so I could you know I'm saying that just just to be very transparent but I you need a hobby I think you need another brand that is counter cyclical to the to the pool brand and I know you're you're on on the path of only one brand okay cool yep I'm in it so uh what are you selling to your beer people uh it's nothing nothing's nothing's happening it's down I told I shut everything down yeah no no I get it I get it but this is this is the thing right this might come back if anything's coming back money Labs never coming back this is yeah this I didn't like fully remove I just went I need to I need to I need to focus on S University and get that cranking um then once have a good flow of like I'm involved in the business because like right now the where I'm involved is like we're I'm doing content you know and I'm improving the products and I'm making better sales pages and I'm croing and and all these other things y um but and I feel like I don't need a lot of time there and I will always continually do it but I need a good job in my own business yeah you know right now I don't feel like I have that job and once I have that job then I can go oh my second job I'm going to write one article a week for this thing and one video a month for this thing and that's just sort of like I have the time and you know availability to do that and then I'm like all right I'm good but yeah and this is like you know I could do a lot more with this right because it's like this I don't own a [ __ ] pool or a Hut tub so like I thought you were installing a hot tub when you yanked the deck didn't you have that pad yeah like it's Avail there it can receive a hot tub but it still means I have to buy it and it means I have to take care of it which I know how hard it is so it's like you know there's that catch 22 but yeah I mean I that's all I did my whole life was take care of Pools and Hot Tubs and it's like you know uh so with with it's interesting that with Brewing it's like it's much easier for me to create content because it's I have the set right totally um but yeah anyway so uh well here let me let me let me go through a couple of things real quick so yeah what I would do is I would open up a calendar and I would look at the calendar I would figure out what's the point in 2024 right because we're we're recording this early November so like when in 2024 are you comfortable actually rolling stuff out to where you that that belief that thought of like oh I can't do that because everybody's pool is closed right so I would I would start mapping out your calendar for next year and I would be launching at least three or four new offers they don't have to be new products but I would launch at least three or four new offers in the first couple of months of next year because what I way I'm seeing it as a as a like cro conversion rate optimization specialist right with that hat on with that through that lens you have a window of opportunity to gain all of your data and then fall and winter hits and your window of opportunity gets kind of Slam shut and you probably would enjoy knowing that the few people who are showing up right now getting into pool season in Florida in Texas etc etc you'd like to know that they're going through the most optimized part of your business so it's almost like looking at your split testing process as like you have split testing season in your business because there's this little window from let's say April through June that you're able to just really everyone is relatively receptive I'd probably look at your Revenue numbers and your traffic numbers and I would look for that month where you have that kind of like all right I know it yeah okay so so you know when that starts so then right now you're actually going to be building out products and prototypes and things and offers that are going to be like ready to go then which include you got to Fig like dude free plus shipping test strips I bought test strips for a hot tub before they came in like a little vial looking thing I would go buy the vial empty it put two strips in with some sort of like a 3×5 card that has a QR code on it they snap a picture of the QR code it's got two or three of those it's got a sales letter in with it so when you mail it to them it has the thing the Q code takes them to the video and it includes a written sales letter for the full thing so the free plus shipping thing that they're getting gives them a tool it gives them education it gives them a sales pitch all in a cheapest damn thing you could ever mail mailer right would would you all right I want to just stop you right there on that idea yes 100% makes sense if you were going to test that yep would you literally at home mail that out to 100% yep the first ones um and I think like I know a little bit about your business like doesn't your bro working like isn't he doing your Tik Tok videos or something yeah but he yeah but he's in a tiny apartment in Denver and can't like have productes envelopes en test strips like 180 test strips would fit on this right we're talking very very very small things okay so for people listening who can't do test strips stickers are the thing for y'all I would say go out and buy so here's and like maybe maybe there's a way to this perfect exactly so stickers are one of those things that you can do free plus shipping on a sticker you can slide it in an envelope you can seal the envelope put a stamp on it and send it but you always mail it with a printed sales letter and if you want there's the old um Gary Halbert sales letter where they attach the dollar bill to the top of it Y and it's actually attached so I would attach the test strips to the top of it and the first part of the first page would be explaining the test strips and how once you learn this one secret to measuring your pH at that point you're able to save thousands and thousands of dollars per year because this is all your pool gu is actually doing he dips Sees In The Water he sees the color so first let's get them to use them and second learn how to get the video course so you never have to pay for those thousands of dollars fees again Bingo it's all it's one it's a unified deliverable that they're paying free plus shipping to me like I would go buy the biggest bag of test strips in the world that you can get get them from China get them from wherever just in bulk they probably be less than a penny each so to me that mailer is 25 cents for an envelope 60 cents for a stamp were like a dollar so you can literally do like a $1.99 free plus shipping if you want to put in a swim University sticker as well that would be another 15 cents printing the mailer printing the actual sales letter and I would just test it for the first season don't build automation around this [ __ ] yet I know you love automation right not yet because it's untested you don't know if it's to work right and like worst case scenario you prove it doesn't work you got a bunch of test strips around so you do a giveaway for test you just find another way to distribute the test strips they'll fit in the corner right they're they're not that big of a thing so that's that's one idea so then what's the next thing like do you guys have content on Cowboy Pools not yet tank yeah yeah Cowboy brand what cowboy is the brand of stock tank pools technically speaking I don't I don't know if they're actually I would I would dig into that right so um a cowboy pool is a concept for people listening it's a stock tank pool which is essentially like a a watering dish for cattle and what they do is they put like a Rhino liner ceiling in it and you fill it up and you can put a filter on it so like do you have a cowboy pool design product okay so if you go on Etsy right now and if you go look on Etsy you're going to see that there's PDF plans for how to make a cowboy pool how to make that they're selling them for $29 all day long okay airbn beers want to add Cowboy Pools in hot climates like Florida and Texas for summer stays because then they get to check the box that says they have a swimming pool even though they don't and they can usually install them without getting permits and they cost like 800 bucks instead of $160,000 what it costs to put a pool in right so like there I I would build that info product and I would literally make a cowboy pool here's the trough here's the pump here's where you drill the holes Tada get it done um the other thing I would do in this offseason I would find a copywriter and I would hire a copywriter um I I think I think that that getting a copywriter to help you flesh out your sales letters to improve upon your sales letters to come up with split test ideas for your sales letters and then hopefully you're creating products so quickly and rapidly that you don't have time to write the sales letters and you just have a professional write all of your sales letters and that's that's Melanie and I we we kind of like we get in and out of that so so we'll be making so many things that we have copywriter writing everything and then I look and I'm like man three grand for a sales letter I'll do that myself and then like I pull back and I write a few of them myself and I'm like [ __ ] writing sales letters is really difficult I'm gonna hire and sometimes I hire them and I give them what I would consider like an 80% done sales letter and they they fix it and improve it from there um I'd be more than happy to connect you with the girl that I use but you you might want to just I found her on upwork literally and I found her by looking for key phrases um so I'm searching in the copyrighted category and I think I was searching for like manifestation because that's just like a big sub Niche that's it's not it's not our Niche but it's it's close enough if they know people who buy manifestation products they know my people and so I hired a copywriter who I felt knew my people and it turns out she is one of my people she's like she's one of us weirdos uh she's in Portland she's awesome um doubt she has a pool in Portland type thing so right like and and what I would do so what what I'm doing is mentally to kind of like recap working on building products and offers that are completely ready to go in that window of launchability and then I would be reconfiguring my autoresponder sequins in such a way that after everything gets pitched okay so email 2 48 hours that's after the deadline funnel it's a yes or no if yes they go over here and they see the next product if no they go down here and they see the book product after that series of of emails which put some value in there right we're not going pitch pitch pitch you already understand that that's more for people listening and so now we're creating like a a tree right so so yes they bought okay here's the next thing for them to buy no they didn't buy here's the next thing for them to see if yes if no if yes if no and this tree goes on forever it's a decision tree that literally goes on forever and what you will have at this upcoming year you don't have all that tagging done but when the 2025 season happens and you create yet and three more products or four more things you're going to test you have different segments you're like okay this product we're going to test for people who bought the book but didn't buy the main course and we're going to sell them this product with the course as the upsell for this thing and you're constantly reading the products they said no to as bumps and upsells on the future products and if you iterate this way for a little while you're going to just build out the number of different products that you have available that you can kind of like Lego snap together into different ways but you're starting to get data on which what's the best entrance point that leads to more yeses back here what's the best entrance point for this side that leads to more yeses over here you'll see the ones that kind of flop you can move them farther and farther down you'll see new ones that do really well you'll move them up up up and this is how you kind of like zoom out and you're optimizing this kind of like new subscriber Adventure year over year over year because ultimately you have one season to test and that's it and then it's like done did you sell everybody a um how to close down your pool yourself so you don't have to pay $900 to get somebody to close your pool do did you sell that $30 product well that's see that the thing is is like that product is in our course yeah but how many people said no to your course 98% plus okay so 98% plus people said no to the big thing that has it all so sell them the individual components right because they might that might be a big and then when they buy that one little thing up sell the whole course and if they say no to that put them in a follow-up sequence that sells them the book and then when it comes time to open their pool here's what you got to do here's a $19 product to open your pool upsell the big course if they say no to the big course sell them the book right and at some point you do get to where you're showing upsells to people who already bought the course and they bought the thing and you're going to see refunds come up but your refund rate is so low right now that's not a problem right if your refund rate like just go Blaze ahead until you hit five six seven 8% at 10% refund rates I'm seriously starting to dig in and be like whoa something's wrong here right like literally I'm my I'm I'm something's broken here from my my processes but um 4% 5 per 6% um yeah we're not refund rate I don't care and what it is for Melanie and I I don't have a way to segment when someone buys product a I can't show them an upsell based on whether they've already bought the upsell or not right that's a limitation in Sam I can't Sam cart can't go say that you know um psychic pixie 457 has already bought this upsell therefore show them the other upsell so I do actually show bumps and upsells to the same people and that's like that's how I monitor when I gotta kind of like put a bumper or an upsell on a shelf for a year or two and come up with new bumps and upsells yeah I have a little control because we're Shopify in clavio so it's there's a little bit more like nitty-gritty in that but it's still pain in the ass yeah still pain in the ass it's all pain in the ass like I I'm using um for AB testing I'm using crazy egg because it was the yeah cleanest y interface and cheapest one I could find and so does it have a heat map where it can show you how far people scroll down so that's the other thing I would be monitoring right what you're looking for is so for people who don't know what we're talking about you can it kind of sort of pseudo records people's screens and it sees how far down do that too though the actual it'll actually record their screen for sure but what what I want you to try to figure out is where on your sales copy are you losing them and with a good with a good copywriter when you show them this crazy EG data because there's some point in the sales letter where most people get bored they're just like I'm in the wrong place I'm out of here and that's what you need to then you're like okay I got to tell a better story here I need to put some subheads I need to make this more scrollable or more uh scannable or and you're looking for where it went like everybody's reading everybody's reading and like we just had a major drop off in people at this part in the page why why are people leaving here am I did I reveal it's an offer too quick am I is this a boring story is the wording I use clunky and that's how you kind of massage things down and down but like if you want to sell more digital products then be a digital product creation company like that's what you want to be company then so so make more digital products make the cowboy pool product make the wait wait what did you I just I missed it what did you just say like don't be a what company don't be like a search engine optimization traffic company right don't don't consider yourself to be a business oh we do organic traffic that's what we do no no no we create digital products we create and sell digital products to people and you're gonna have this thing it's going to keep coming up yeah but that's in my big course yeah but 99% of people have not bought your course like look at how many customers you have for your big course and go look at how big your list is yeah do the math yeah we we uh yeah we uh we we like to call ourselves like a digital education company yep because it's like that way everything that we sell is to educate somebody on pool or hot tub care in some way we don't have the audience of like people who are building pools we don't do that kind of content right um but there's I mean the thing is is what's nice about our audience is that it rotates so like you know you move into a house that pool doesn't leave it's it's always there so like but you always have new homeowners that have a new problem now um but it's like so we make now the interest rates are 8% but hey sure there's going to be a lot of people just staying staying put but um yeah so but then you have people that are building pools and and and installing pools but and yeah people that buy the Etsy product to build a stock tank pool still need us right so um and they need to buy your stock tank pool product right like right and so we we no we've thought about obviously like there's a three-part system to my this like master plan which I may never get to in life but it was like you know we right now we're in the middle which is like we're hitting people who own already own this asset asset big liability yeah liability uh then it's like oh we could also hit people who do not own that yet and want to build one say a stock tank pool buy a hot tub install an inground pool install an above ground pool Etc like that's a separate audience which then leads them to the third thing right which or our thing and then we have the industry side of it too so we could take we could literally take our course that teaches homeowners and repackage it for pool professionals because they all buy it now because they're like I'm starting a pool company out of my pickup truck you know what what course can I buy that's less than like $5,000 like well you know and what I did in in the other window while you were talking earlier I went over to yeah and um I just went to essentially go look at what's selling and the pool technician and business startup course um the pool Tech Pro quick course homeowner pool maintenance course so this is you're here right like you're at the homeowners pool maintenance course but what this tells me is just off off of you to me for just the keyword swimming pool that more people buy the essentially like totally bizop it right it's a bizop is what people want and therefore that's like the next level and if you know anything about Joe polish like what Joe polish did is he got into the carpet cleaning business and then he started teaching carpet cleaners how to Market their business then he started teaching how all businesses can Market their businesses and and his income scaled magnitudes yeah you just going to a wider and wider audience totally totally and if you can help those people who have those pool businesses certification courses work really well but helping young people start pool businesses here's how to start a basic pool care this is what you need to do dude and this is where when I was saying like like be be that course creating business be that info product business and create more of these courses and you don't necessarily know exactly which ones are going to work but this has been you know mly my ethos for for a very long time is is create lots of different products and you've seen it with my stuff if you bought my autoresponder templates like you've seen a lot of my little stuff I got little stuff I got bundles I got big bundles I did uh membership for a while like I've just lots of different things to see what works and some things work really well for the marketplace and I didn't like doing them so I shut down my membership program and I actually got something new coming out soon that's going to be kind of similar to that but it's different hopefully eliminating the parts that bothered me and it's this Perpetual process of like yes I have my traffic machine over here right this is me spinning a plate right so I keep that plate spinning because I need the traffic to continue to go keep my email list plate spinning but I'm mostly thinking about like okay what Solutions can I bring to the marketplace that people are going to be willing and able to pay for without really thinking too much of and that's where I'm looking at the conversion and and getting back to and and maybe to wrap it up too uh without going too long but like getting back to the like AB testing thing of it right like I we AB testing products makes so much sense to me that like and I can even see that I can see it without being confused it's when you start getting into like price testing and and and I guess it's for me it's not necessarily about like what to test it's when to test how to test how often to test should I even test like what what if what's my all and I'll say this what is what should be the tester's ultimate goal in the end in my head I think it's just more Revenue but that's probably not true well a profit is more important than Revenue um right but but is more profit But but so like I think is it better to have more profit and less customers or more customers and less profit because then you know there's like these these nuances to it but right and and the the variable that helps you decide that is your lifetime value and right now your lifetime value isn't much beyond that big main product if I'm hearing you correctly therefore it is the only thing yes it is the only right right therefore while you build out all of those other things that are going to increase your lifetime value and they're going to allow you to test different front-end offers for people who said no to your main thing so so while you build that out you are 100% focused on how do I just sell more of this one thing that brings home the bacon because that's the one thing that brings home the bacon so you want to be testing I think the price test is a very easy thing you can let run through the winter for a while and then I would be creating a new sales cop I I would be working with a professional sales copy person to write a new sales letter that when you get into season and you can even start launch it before season for the sales letter because you are driving some traffic and I think you know enough about your people that that people who come through are buying but you would just do so that the data is going to take a while to acrew um I would be testing someone else's sales copy against yours while you go create the product because you're not going to be able to go Outsource the process of product creation per se you can Outsource bits and pieces of it but but you're still going to be the one putting the brand yeah right right that is very you writing another sales letter is not something that you necessarily need to do so your price test continues to go while you're just letting this thing Run for the time being you go get another sales copy started for your main thing that's already selling to see if that increases your conversion rate from there and then what are those other front-end offers that we're going to be offering come springtime and once you have those what are your ads and I would think some of these YouTube ads I would I would be encouraging you to play um those types of games right in in making YouTube ads and things like that for the different products the different offerings the different pieces and also on the test strip thing hot tub owners are rocking their hot tubs all winter long oh yeah to Summit County and Summit County is cracking right 10 11,000 feet up and folks are sitting in hot tubs we still have that o like we didn't I didn't mess with that that Otto's in place it works you know it's works it it works it's not great I mean we don't have we don't get a lot of hot tub traffic we get way more pool even in sometimes even in the winter so um yeah we were thinking whatever we learn on the pool side of things we can just apply to the hot tub side of things um once that you know um and that season's pretty much year round I mean you know a lot believe it or not a lot of people close their hot tubs in the winter so it's probably cost right people who are on fix incomes and stuff I mean it can be expensive to keep them run all especially people that like you know the the people who are older in the Northeast close their hot tubs winterize it go down to Florida and spend the winter there you know and then come back and reopen does make sense yeah but then you have here Colorado where it's they're you know it's a big it's big business here totally totally nothing better than sitting under the stars when it's cold as hell out and just enjoying the hot tub right and Pacific Northwest two areas yeah I think finding a copywriter man I think getting somebody in your back pocket who's an absolute like um just a word Smith who can convert people and it might take testing a few um but that's what I would be testing technically speaking you're looking at the the big idea behind the sales letter and the hook which is usually embedded in the headline the subhead and the first couple of sentences um from there it's it's just kind of clarity on on what all is involved and and how it'll benefit the people but when you find somebody who can write copy for you you can really turn on this machine of create new product get great copy that you can count on written for it launch it does it work yes or no repeat repeat repeat repeat and instead of pouring money into the Facebook ads game hoping the thing you have built Works what you're doing is You're Building better things and when you test something through your list through organic traffic that works Bingo now you can actually roll that out to ads and see does this offer work on the level of ads instead of trying to force what you have into the ad atmosphere this opens you up to creating new things that you can now test in the ad world to find the thing that works for the ad world because what you found is what works for the SEO people because that's how you buildt your business because you know them and you know getting in front of them with you know how to answer their questions but it doesn't mean that people on social and people on YouTube don't have other questions about their thing they might be curious about how to just measure and like where do I get the test STS you know like the free plus shipping offer may crush it from social and maybe by day 14 on a free plus shipping offer you sell a lot more courses than just going after the course sales on the front end and these are the kinds of like bigger picture things that I like to test and it's of often through through more offers is usually the way to kind of get there yeah Ander in an offer doesn't mean the product changes it just means what how you package it different sales letter it could be a bundle it could be I mean that that's what I've been doing you notice with all my templates and stuff um I've got the email version of it I've got the Breakthrough salesletter version I've got like a Facebook front version trying to figure out what's the best thing and then I've got the the sales funnel bundle going after people who like sales funnel so my people can be email marketers sales funnel people EMA uh affiliate marketers they can be entering my world from a number of different angles and I'm trying to find those sources of customers that have the highest percentage of people that say yes because when I get a bunch of people saying yes I can then go create followup products and offers and things and affiliate emails and all kinds of other things that I can offer them over time um I just want to get a bunch of yeses coming in at first um build a customer list versus building a a leads list and that's the partly just to actually sum this up if I go run leads in the make money online space Jesus I I could spend four to six $10 per lead for some campaigns just get an opt-in which is atrocious whereas I can go sell a $5 product for seven bucks and it cost me $2 out out of pocket to get a customer where it cost me $4 to get a lead perfect I'd rather pay $2 get less of them but they actually pulled out their credit card and said yes which means when I launch my Black Friday offer there's gonna be a really high likelihood people are going to say yes when I launch my New Year's offer there's going to be a higher percentage of people who said yes because they already bought something from me in the past and that's more of a reflection on my business model the fact that I don't have the seasonality built in um than it is anything but it's a good it's good to show people how different it all can be it's the same theories but they get applied very differently based on the business yeah for sure all right any last comments or um no I'll I'll dead horse why are you beating a dead horse don't beat Dead Horses what what's my wait what's my dead horse no I was just asking are we done beating this dead horse I think we are oh oh oh oh I'm like yeah we're done beating the dead I mean it's still it's still it's still alive it is it's not completely dead Noe no we wouldn't do that we're not those kinds of people all right well thank you very much Matt gvishi and thank you at watching um let me know if you have questions about this I think it's helpful to see how professionals brainstorm through this right this is not passive this is not simple these are not easy things to do um but the thought process of how we break down into the different offers and what goes where and how goes what like this is what professional marketers do and this is the pathway to building multi-million dollar businesses online from your laptop so um if you liked it leave me a comment uh give it a thumbs up like it appreciate you and I'll catch you on the next video

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