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this isn't like something I read in a textbook or um you know found in an ancient Sanskrit that I dug out of the Pyramids of Giza or something this is like just sort of empirical Knowledge from having tried things over and over and over and paying attention to to what worked and what didn't and what I've found is that there's a lot of wrong ways unfortunately to do this right and and so what I what like how the the idea of sort of these three phases has come about is uh honestly through making a lot of mistakes through the years and not doing it right and uh doing some things right from the start like my my intuition on a few things has been good but a lot of things it hasn't and um and so because of that I sort of I've gotten into this mode through the years of of of testing micro steps like not not jumping too far ahead ever because uh the mistake is that that the mistake I've made which I know a lot of people have made is you get ahead of yourself and you and you start building the thing and you haven't done these preliminary steps and then you end up with this thing that either isn't the right thing that people want or is a thing that nobody wants or you never finish the thing so you never even get to have that um like like one of the the challenges with building something that you're creating yourself is is running through the tape and and getting to the end and one of the things that at least for me and my personality type that that helps me to run through the tape and get to to the end is having positive validation on the front end that is spurring me along you know that people are paying for it or that they are have bought it and are interested or whatever and a lot of times I end up with unfinished projects if I don't have customers and and so that's where this sort of uh three phases and iterative process has developed is um you know the first step is just striking oil just finding out like it's the wildcatting it's it's going out there and finding out um you know is there oil in the ground and the second part is can I get it out of the ground at a profit like economically and um you know if the oil is a hundred miles deep or something then um you know it might not be worth drilling it right but but uh sometimes you've got oil just underneath the ground and you you just tapped it and your guys are start spitting out there's the The Beverly Hillbillies right like he was out hunting a rabbit and uh took a shot missed the rabbit hit the ground and boom the the bubbling crude and it's like there is pent up demand in every single audience right every niche market every hobbyist there's there's these things that if they if they were out there and if they knew about them no-brainer like there there's that and that's the the like how easy is this oil to get out kind of conversation versus some of the more complex types of sales that required all of these crazy processes and you got to stack the beliefs and like it's technically doable it's easier when you have a ton of skills and experience but it's the long hard way and risk versus reward is I think one of the things we were talking about here is like so we're risking our time and often some money in ad budgets and tools and this that but a lot of the time it's really our time to build the thing so let's maybe have a clear idea that indeed there's a reward for me to risk you know like if I'm going to put it in the time I should know beforehand so the the uh what we're helping you not do which you and I have both done is spend six months creating something people don't want and or creating spending six months creating something that never actually gets finished because we just keep scope creep just we just oh well then I could add this on and then I could have this and then I could have that and it becomes this thing that that is overwhelming and it never gets done versus Lisa Franken product right it's like you just let me let me stick ahead on and then let me you know it's like it's Frankenstein that just every part a couple of bolts in the neck that's right and Franken products are the worst it's it's much better to have one product to solve one problem you know and exactly so sorry perfect so yeah um so the first part uh really like is there oil here the second part was can I get it out profitably what what's the third part well so that's all part one okay so that's that's step one is just Discovery it's the wildcatting process it's it's like okay I want to find out if it's actually there and can I get it out economically uh part two is what I call building the pump and so if you find oil then you've got to put together a mechanism to get it out of the ground right and and so there's there's a couple of pieces to this there's the getting eyeballs on my thing piece and then once the eyeballs are on turning them into paying clients or customers and and so it's kind of like you know in the parlance of the internet marketing world is traffic and conversion and So based on what type of oil well that you are uh running sometimes there are platforms where traffic is all it's it's automated and it's there you know like if you're on some of these sites like um uh Amazon or or the print on demand sites or Etsy or some of those things they've got a ready-made ecosystem right there for you you just got to put your stuff out you might have to hustle a little bit to get some traffic to it but it's not like just a website out in The Ether you know um and and also with some of those which I think are good ideas to you know for your first product if you've never done this before the the the actual conversion mechanism is is kind of templated out and easily able to to have and then um the the the the I would say the trade-off is the the more someone else has put together the traffic and someone else has put together the conversion mechanism the smaller the amount you're gonna make per sale usually but that's okay because it's that zero to one idea like if you've never done anything before making five dollars a sale is still good because you're you're learning right and then eventually you can transition into having your own traffic system and your own pump and your own stuff so you can turn five dollars a sale into fifty dollars a sale maybe um but but you know so so phase two is actually getting that pump just pumping out the oil consistently right and and take you know doing doing the the the actual heavy lifting of putting it in front of people and having those people buy it um so that's phase two and I never recommend building phase two before phase one which is again what I've done a bunch of times um and then phase three uh do you have any questions about phase two no man I think it makes perfect sense I I want to reiterate the idea that leveraging platforms that already have traffic is going to allow you to test the ideas and test the potential of kind of like like what's the depth of this Marketplace like how big is this this pocket of oil um so like Etsy was an example that you brought up uh you can people are selling spreadsheets on Etsy for everything from budgeting and whatnot and they're running pay-per-click Etsy ads so in that kind of a scenario Etsy is getting a cut for the transaction because they built the platform that you're running on but they handle the shopping cart and all of those bits and pieces and obviously they're getting a cup for the pay-per-click ad but when you know you have a Marketplace that has XYZ number of people on it all day every day looking for things to buy and you can see other people are selling these things very successfully because you can literally go look at the numbers based on their uh the listings show the numbers you can run the math right then and there it's going to help you really understand okay there's a high likelihood of this working so there's there's oil in the ground I can see that but now can I extract the oil and then can I build systems to really start to run that oil well for me you got a couple of pay-per-click campaigns running you got a specific product you got your listing dialed in and that thing might run at cash flow positive five bucks a day 50 bucks a day 500 a day at this phase and so here's I did have a question here's a question like I mean the the amount of money you're making at this phase is almost irrelevant correct like it's the fact that you are consistently making money like you've built the systems that have an output of daily cash flow like that's really kind of the goal we're going to here right yeah so I like honestly in phase two if you're breaking even that's a win like like if you can build out the pump and have customers coming in consistently and you're even just just like net break even on on getting a customer then that is a winning product and I know that if you're not familiar with this type of business you're like okay well then where how how do I actually work the money yeah like how I can't spend Break Even uh and I understand that the thing about it though is when somebody buys one thing from you as long as that thing is not like crappy then usually the trust barrier has gone way up and especially if you Delight them and give them a good experience as they um buy it and consume it and and what have you then where the money's made is on the second thing third thing fourth thing fifth thing you sell them which again uh is an automated process and that's part of phase three yeah and there's uh the old adage that the money is in the list and the money is really in the relationship you have with the list and there's two lists we're always working with the customer list and the lead list so anyone who's out there is like okay I get that the miles we're on Etsy or we're on Amazon and they own the customer and you're correct but with a little creative thinking uh one of your bonuses that is in with your Etsy product could be a video tutorial um they would need to go to your website and they would need to opt in for it and there it is for the customer so we sell Amazon books Kindle books all the time and our goal on those ad campaigns we're often right now we're cash flow negative on every book we sell just not much uh 10 20 cents here and there type thing but inside of the book there are all of these embedded offers for other free things that they're going to find valuable and that leads them on to our list and that's where going and getting these things out to the Amazon Marketplace at large where people are buying books all day every day and then leading them back to our MP3s which you can't get that on the Kindle book but if they go to the URL in the book Bingo now they're back on our side of the game and it's a way to kind of build those lists even if we're cash flow uh break even um on that first kind of front end yeah the the the key to the whole thing if even if you're on a platform like Amazon or or whatever um where you don't um have control of the customer like I know who I buy from generally and if it's good and I and I see something come come through my feed even on a on a site like that from the same uh seller vendor then I'll I'll look at it right you've got my attention and that's the the thing that the real value of of the thing is um hang on sorry this is great my iPad is telling me that I've got a meeting with uh uh nice this is professionally done guys this is meeting with miles is that what's popping off exactly it's actually team meeting because my team is meeting right now and I don't even have that on my calendar but somehow it's on my iPad but so the the point I'm making is that the the the the value like when Miles said the value is in your list that's true and it's also in my opinion in the attention that you have of these people like even if they trust you but they're like ah that guy's a kook they don't and they don't give you much attention then you know like you're only going to have so much success with that whereas if any time you come across their feed they're like oh this guy's really smart or oh this girl has the best candles or oh this dude you know whatever like like if your stuff has made a positive impression on them then they then they will stop and pay attention to what that thing is and then you have the ultimate chance to sell them something else which is so hard today that's the hardest thing is to Garner people's attention for a long period of time right this person brings value in my life is that so like you become it's like an association and humans were were Association creatures and and when you build that Association of this person brings value into my life when you show up in the inbox if you show up in the feed if you just show up on kind of like their past orders list whatever it is that's the association we want to build with them um over time perfect brilliant yep and so then phase three is the phase where I call it building the refinery and this is where you you have like your factory right and so the the two pieces of the factory um that I'm talking about are like the customer delivery and service and all that sort of things and then secondarily is where you refine the oil and get the most valuable product out of it so so like um uh you have some sort of promise that is made to the consumer who purchases your thing you have to fulfill that promise so maybe it's a digital product that you're sending them maybe it's a small service that you have that gets done for them maybe it's a physical product any number of things that it could be you want them to have a seamless experience with you and then you want to have attentive customer service in case anything does go wrong and both of those things in 2021 can be 100 automated and done without your personal life force being drawn out to do it which is great and then so that's that's kind of the first side of things and the other side of things is that you want to get that oil and refine it into the highest quality whatever it is you know like it like there's there's uh oil that turns into diesel there's oil that turns into gas there's oh I you know I I can't remember Max I can't remember my thermodynamics class but like you know figure out what the highest value of your oil is and and refine it into that and so what I mean by that practically like tactically is this is where we were talking about making the second third fourth fifth sale to the customer and it could be that you're making affiliate sales for other people's products it could be that you're selling more things that you have it could be that you're selling a higher end thing that you do or have or or whatever but this is the point where you you you've discovered oil you've realized okay yes I can get it out profitably or or at least Break Even I've built a machine to do that to actually get it out of the ground now I've got to get it over here into a place where I can make it you know usable for the person who's driving their big gas guzzling SUV and also I want to be able to you know sell them more of the gasoline or which is I my analogy is to make it the highest value use or whatever but you're you're building in these automated processes to try and make more sales and increase the lifetime value of that customer so one other way to think about it is like how many ways can you repurpose what just proved to work right so we by that point in time we've proven that there's oil that we can get the oil out of the ground so maybe it's an e-book that you start with um in fact there's books on the market today that started out as tweet storms the Tweet storm got extended into a blog post the blog post got extended into a book and then the book got made into an audiobook and now he has courses around that same contact and it's the same idea literally the it would start as 140 characters was a compelling enough hook a compelling enough big idea and it was the number of different ways that they were able to kind of iterate these things in a purely Amazon example people buy the Kindle book and the audiobook because they read and listen at the same time so it's literally there's there's the opportunity to make two sales with the exact same content repurposed in different ways and I think what I want to highlight because I think that's like not necessarily the highest value of time usage or not necessarily the highest reward potential but as you mentioned there's like getting it into the courses there's what's the highest potential value medium or kind of experience for someone to go through that content um it could be a weekend live Zoom Workshop that could be valued at hundreds if not thousands of dollars it then that recording could be recorded and sold forever and ever ever at 197.2 for whatever that value is and here you are taking that same content that's proven to work and you're building more and more systems and essentially more and more kind of spin-off products from that same core idea and at some point you really The Machine's running the the Oil Well pumping the customer services dialed the pay-per-click ads work like the machine just works and you kind of are extracting it at capacity uh it might not be Max Capacity but there's a point where trying to get more out of that same oil well can actually hinder the results Beyond a certain point and this is when we habitual serial entrepreneurs Uh Kevin and I like all right what's next you know and at this point we really don't have to look far because through the process you're building up all these ideas of other oil wells you can test and generally we've got a few testing at the different phases and it's kind of like what do I want to work on today and stacking up a portfolio of these oil wells gets us into that idea that I've mentioned a couple times of like the oil field and sometimes it's selling lots of things to the same customer and other times it's going into a totally different area because you're interested in it or you want to flat out diversify or you just tested something on a whim and it clicked you're like okay like now I have this going on and I think the the most successful students in here are those who go through the process fully with one because it takes a lot of focus and energy to really get all like in the first time you go through it it feels like there's a lot of bits and pieces going on feels like there's all these things but once you've gone through the full cycle once and then the full cycle again the pattern plays out and that's why my most recent businesses and websites have been able to get to 10 grand a month drastically faster than my first ones I'm not doing anything different I'm just skipping all of the annoying things I've messed up on the first ones which is that's what Kevin and I want to help you do in in this kind of course here is to like we're going to lead you but go through the full cycle with one and then do I add more products to this am I owning this customer list can I take is it is it going to be a better risk reward to stick with this and add on spin-off products or is it time for another one I kind of tangentialize that but I want to throw that back to you Kevin and see how that rubs you yeah so I think that that's it like um there's horizontal or vertical right and what I find is that my personal preference is I I try to take these oil wells vertical to a certain point and then I usually get bored uh or distracted by another idea like I'm what's called a polymath I have like very I have varied and many interests and so I you know like I play the piano the guitar and video games with my son I have motorcycles boats and you know and like obsessed with crypto stuff right now like like I kind of a marketing geek you're kind of a new entrepreneur yeah yeah I've got all these different things going on and to me ultimate pain would be like having to do the same thing over and over every week for the rest of my life that would be just ultimate pain so so what I find as my recipe some people some people want to just have like because they need a schedule and consistency in regimented life and um like like if if they operate it like my wife if my wife operated like me she'd go nuts right she just she doesn't like she needs a she has a date time from the 90s that she still uses you know because she's just got to have her stuff together and for me I wake up every morning and I'm like I wonder what I want to do today you know if I have if I have a call all on the calendar I feel like okay like the the boa constrictor is getting tied here you know um so because of that I find that there's some sort of natural um depth that I dig the oil well and then I just let it pump and and then I move on and I know that I've left millions of dollars in the ground because of that but I'm okay with it you know this is this is not this business just so that uh miles and I are clear this business is not the business that is like maximized dollars in bank account at death this business is more like maximize creativity and lifestyle and lifestyle and ability to do whatever you want you know um like I don't need F everybody money because I already have it right it's like like that's to me the big um like somebody thinks oh you got to have 50 mil you know I know a guy that just sold his company for 40 million after selling his other company for 30 something million and and his his thing is about having Fu money and he's a great guy and I like him and respect him and all this stuff but I don't think it takes 30 or 40 million dollars to have Fu money it just takes it just takes having the freedom to not be beholden to anybody to where you have to kiss their ass to be your customer right or your client and these cash flow systems are the ultimate replacement for a ridiculous net asset value kind of like uh net worth number right so the four percent safe withdrawal rate and 10 million dollars in the bank okay well you could just set up enough oil wells that can spit out that much cash flow for you hands off and you're there you might not have the 10 million in the bank but you have a lifestyle that might actually indeed be more enjoyable and offer more time freedom and location freedom than someone who does run that large of a company who's trying to exit and um there's there's aspects of that that's a total nightmare to me versus I I would say too if you're if you're a thing that you've built is truly providing value to people then your like four percent of 10 million is 400 000 so that's like 35 Grand a month or whatever it is 33 Grand a month um so if you are truly providing value to people I would posit that you are in a much more stable position if you have something that's thrown off 30 grand a month from your businesses passively than the person who has 10 million dollars sitting in the bank because with just a static asset throwing off tiny cash flow like that they have principal risk like if the country prints another three trillion dollars on a valuation risk yeah yeah all these different problems oh somebody going to steal it from me you know they don't whereas you know if you've got like a a book that you wrote that's on Amazon that's making you 200 a month in royalties like that's that's good I mean I got that like right like I've got books I I had written for me 11 years ago that make me about 250 a month and I'm not even proud of it I'm kind of a little bit ashamed of of some of them but they still print me money right and and so there's a lot of that kind of stuff that I think people people are mistaken about what they think it takes to truly have that ability to not care yeah I 100 agree so let's wrap this up I'm going to do a quick um like overview but I'd like to if you can help me and the viewer like what is the how do you know when you're ready to transition from one to the next so what are like the signs what is what is the what am I going to be feeling looking for when it's like ah okay now I'm ready to move on to stage two so to run through them real quick um the discovery phase like is there oil here can I get it out of the ground profitably that's the testing phase um then part two is building the pump which is um building the actual mechanisms to get out the traffic in conversion and then number three is Refinery it's like all about the systems to automate it at the absolute highest level you can and maximizing to get as many different valuable uh products out of the refinery the Cosmetic oil in addition to the diesel in addition to the gasoline and on and on and on so when someone is in Phase One a lot of testing going on how do they know when it's like okay it's time to build a pump around this thing how do they know when they've when they've found something okay so a couple of things I'll say yeah so a couple things I'll say I completely 100 percent one million percent disagree with a lot of the advice that people give about how to test okay so people say you know do a survey of your followers and ask them if they would buy this or this or this or they say you know look at what other people are selling or like you all that is bad because um ultimately uh doing a survey if you're asking people would they buy things there are so many reasons that you get false positives there not the least of which is that people don't want to have conflict with you so they'll tell you yes even though they really say no if you're looking at what other people are doing you don't know the full story and you don't know the the assets that they have or the advantages is or the advantages that they have that you don't have right like there there could be like an endorsement that they have from some Insider company that's making something sell that like I I know a guy who can't make paid traffic work for his stuff um but he um uh makes sales all the time because he is endorsed by industry um uh like the companies within the industry they bring him in to speak to their employees and tell them who are who are contractors and then tell them you need to work with this guy and so these guys are very beholden to their employee you know to their their uh it's a it's I don't want to tell it industry but basically the the the head honcho says hey this this guy's speaking today you need to sign up with him and then you know they're pretty much like at uh at least a disadvantage if they don't and so you know you could never compete with that guy because he has relationships with all these owners of these big Mega billion dollar companies you can't you can't like know that right but but that's how he has a an eight-figure coaching business in this realm and and uh so those are the kind of things that you don't know going in so the the the the number one way to go from step one to step two is is do I make sales to people who don't know me like me and trust me already can I make a sale to someone who is not my grandmother right it's called a stranger can I sell my stuff to strangers that's right and if you can then you're ready to move on probably unless it is there is something that is tremendously cost prohibitive in how you make the sale like if you're making a sale of a fifty dollar product or ebook and it's costing you five hundred dollars then you might want to to look at that um and we can get into the to the tactics of what you need to do to to figure that out but if you can make a sale even at a loss but but like if you can make make a sale within 2x the price of your thing or less than you've probably got a gusher if you know uh but are you you've definitely got oil and you can definitely get it out at break even if you can make a front-end sale at 2X or less and then once you get into phase two you'll find out if it's a gusher by figuring out if you can make multiple sales yeah so if you lower the cost per conversion and if you can conversion rate optimization if you can test new headlines a new sales copy and that's where um so now you've you've proven that the market values the thing in uh within a reasonable tolerance of of what your goal is which is Break Even or better is kind of like the goal um and then so part two is like okay so my pump runs it's just running inefficiently at this point and how do I start to optimize the pump how do I start to work on this thing to where I am indeed getting uh better values so it could be shifting from the platform to off the platform with traffic that you own setting up your own sales funnel because maybe we get rid of the Etsy commissions and maybe we get rid of the those cost per click and we sell direct to Consumer on a platform like that's one of the potential ways um sales copy bundling I've seen several times sometimes kind of a bun bundling I would also rephrase that as like enhancing the offer making the offer more irresistible and potentially increasing the the cost or the the potential profit for you in that so and again we'll get we'll get into it but but I love this idea that like can you sell things to strangers even if it's a lost leader we'll call it in the beginning um yes or no it's kind of binary right and then once yes then it's like okay can we optimize this thing to be Break Even or better and spit off a list somewhere that we own is that kind of like would you call that phase two or so how well what's phase two and then when when what's that transition to three look like yeah so so phase one oftentimes what I do is I will make what I call like the unscalable offer um where and we've talked about this a lot but the idea is I'll I'll price it low I'll promise High and I just want to get that validation that somebody sees enough like entry shows enough interest and sees enough value in this to reach in their back pocket grab that piece of leather get that piece of plastic and type in all those digits you know that's to me is still the magic of everything right it's one of the most difficult things in the world to do is to get a stranger to pull out their credit card on a website and give you money that's right it is incredibly difficult being on Etsy so it makes it a little easier right people buy on eBay and Etsy and that there's brand value there but boy when you even take it to your own um you know my securehomepage.net and you're making sales from there it is a I think the the newer Generations don't uh honor how how amazingly difficult that actually is to get someone to it's a miracle buy something I I I I it's like a miracle you know and so so so I get like uh um a proof of concept sale or two 2 in phase one and then in phase two I'm trying to get it to production level stuff so I I start to pull back on the Promises I start to inch up the price while sending traffic you know and and get to that point where okay we're able to make sales at the you know this seems like the price here and this seems like the the promise here and by you know if it say say we're talking about a physical product versus digital well I'm talking about like okay are we giving free shipping or not what's the you know what's what's the price on this thing what are the things we're throwing in as bonuses all you so so there's this sort of sliding scale of stuff that you're changing and testing and doing all that stuff as you are sending more and more traffic and so during this period what you're doing is you're really sort of narrowing down this thing and and getting the front end this is the this is the tip of your spear right this is this is the front end of your thing you're getting it to where it's optimized for the you know the the the number of customers and the and the value of a customer like the the you know the price that you can bring them in like some people if they have bigger goals they might you know promise more and keep the price lower and then know that they've got a back end that's going to do this stuff but generally speaking I try to sort of have a have it in the middle at first and try to bring them in at break even or maybe a little profit and and then once I'm doing that consistently and I'm doing it enlightening striking every day so in in step one you make lightning strike step two is like you make lightning start striking every day right and that's what step two is about is just to get lightning striking every day to where it's it's it's working it's predictable it's affordable and so on and so forth and you're getting a hand if you're getting one two three five seven sales a day and you're making even small amounts of money like cash flow positive so let's say you're a little above Break Even you're making cat like you're actually building your War chest at the same time because this front end this is not where we pay mortgages this is this is the money that goes right back in to the Oil Well to the next level of systems to automation divert all of the bits and pieces and or to more traffic to find out okay so we're doing three sales a day can I do nine does does more traffic without going out of pocket without pulling out of your bank account it's a process of reinvesting the profits reinvesting into the soil world to get it to a certain point and then letting it spin I love the lightning strike can you just freaking sell something to strangers um part two being get that lightning striking daily and getting to where your like worst case scenario is Break Even but you want to start to see profit margins showing up in this portion yeah so phase three is where you take some of the lightning strikes and you stick some sticks down to it and light it on fire and make a torch and then you're able to take that torch and light a bunch of other fires and then you've got heat all the time right and and so that's the the thing so like if you can get if you can get a business that's making five sales a day you're probably gonna have like a six figure business 100 like you're you're if if you're making five sales a day at break even you're gonna be able to Parlay that into 10 grand a month I bet at least and I I agree and I think there there's a psychological reason why that is and it's overlooked especially when people are in the weeds of conversion and all they can think about is making the sales is like these people the human beings who just saw enough value in that thing that you're presenting they're buying all kinds of other stuff on Etsy or they're buying all they're buying all kinds of other stuff online because your thing is one step on a journey from where they are to where they want to be and they're going to buy a whole lot more than just that whether it's golfing stuff and they want to hit the ball longer straighter and harder okay here's one thing I'm gonna get but that's not the only thing they're gonna think you have to swivelly widget ball Striker and the balance magnet and the one-legged golfer sales letter they're reading that one um especially and I think certain niches certain niches are are different than others and there's there's they're they're called hyperactive buyers right like literally people segment out their hyperactive buyers because there are voracious consumers in absolutely every space and that's the point of the spear that Kevin was just talking about right so this one thing this is just your your in this is your foot in the door with what could be a flood of voracious buyers and in part three in phase three that's where you're like okay how do I repurpose this how do I what do I what other other things can I offer these individuals what other offers can I present to this same group of people who are clearly valuing this thing to the point of me seeing all of these daily sales while continuing to refund refine that one to take less time and energy out of you so you can focus on more products for these people and that's kind of the the going deep with the oil low idea yeah and ultimately you know a lot of this sounds probably like oh man this is I know you probably it feels like you're far away from the money maybe but it happened it can happen quickly like yes the the thing that you gotta figure out is you it's it's so tempting to want to build websites and and do all that stuff but I would just implore you to stick to the phase that you're in until you get that that right feedback because once you get it then you're going to be doing a lot of work fast and you're going to be like believe me once once you once you start getting sales every day then you're going to want all this other stuff so so take your time and make sure that you're getting the front end right because the the magic of it is discovering a market and just and and getting that you know product Market fit just right because then after that man like the rest of it it's it's work but it's it's a much more it's much more of a linear path once you've discovered that that that that oil and uh at this point I know it might seem a bit obscure but but trust me it gets it gets exciting and then it gets addictive to actually want to do it again and again and again so Kevin any last words on this one no I think we've sort of beat this horse into the ground um but I will say um like there's lots of oil out there yes you don't have to go for you know the E85 Ethanol like don't don't uh don't shortchange that part of the process enjoy that part of the process because there is there's a lot lot of oil out there and um more than we could ever mine ourselves or or whatever you know so so just know that there's not a scarcity to this you you spend the time finding the oil wildcatting and trust me it's a fun fun process

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